Original | Late

Compiled by Dingdang ( @XiaMiPP )

Editor's Note: "Late Scene" recently conducted a video interview with Justin Sun, covering his personal worldview, entrepreneurial experience, industry insights, and understanding of cryptocurrency and meme coins. Since the original video (click to jump to Bilibili viewing) is an hour and a half long, Odaily Planet Daily has selected highlights from it, focusing on Sun's response to the label "concept god," his experience with the Trump Organization, how he navigated multiple regulatory crises, and his unique insights on the value of meme coins. Enjoy!

1. Personal Worldview and the “Conceptual God” Label

Host: I'm curious about your worldview. How do you understand yourself and the world? Everyone knows you're incredibly good at making money, and you have many unique ways to do it. If you were to rank money, fame, and power, how would you rank them?

Justin Sun: Actually, I wouldn't say I'm particularly driven by making money. I think it's more the result of internet memes, which have shaped me into a "concept god." It's a bit like in ancient Greek mythology, where each god governs a different concept. Everyone has a concept, and for some reason, I've been assigned the concept of "making money quickly."

Host: What do you think about people calling you "Sun Ge", which means "Ge" in the sense of cutting leeks?

Justin Sun: This is actually a meme. I used to be called Sun Yuchen, but it's probably too long, three characters, and a bit difficult to write, so everyone wanted to shorten it. Some people in the community started calling me "Brother Sun," originally "Brother's Brother." I personally find it quite endearing and embrace the expression. Even our company's media and public relations department started using it, for example, calling an event "Brother Sun invites you..." Gradually, the meme crowd started to pick up, which is perfectly normal. I think it's just the way communication works on the internet.

People often like to interpret serious and formal things in a playful way, which is actually not a bad thing. From a communication perspective, this approach is actually more likely to spread.

For example, someone later commented and changed "Brother Sun" to "cutting leeks," and a "dog head" emoji appeared below. In my opinion, this is a dramatic way to spread the word. There's no malice involved; it's just a meme. If you can't handle memes in the internet age, you're really behind the times.

Host: So would you put money before reputation, or reputation after money?

Justin Sun: Actually, I don't particularly value money or reputation. What I value more is my mission. For example, since 2012, I've felt that I'm spreading the word about cryptocurrency and that I have a mission to make this industry a success. This is my highest priority—ensuring that my mission is accomplished.

Why are reputation and money unimportant? First, reputation fluctuates. If your actions are driven by others' evaluation, then there's no point. I always insist on doing what's right and acting according to principle. For example, if the US government thinks what I'm doing is right today and promotes me as a good person and hero, then one day they think it's wrong and accuse me of violating the law, I won't adjust my behavior based on their evaluation. Most likely, if they don't allow me to do something, I won't do it in that country.

Money fluctuates, too. Today, everyone's chasing it, rushing in, sending prices soaring; tomorrow, everyone's retreating, sending prices plummeting. If you're obsessed with these fluctuations, you won't be able to persevere in your work. Therefore, the external influence of fame and money shouldn't be the driving force behind your actions.

Host: So why do you want to “make money quickly”?

Justin Sun: Actually, I wasn't deliberately trying to "make money quickly." My life has been full of serendipity. Looking back, after graduating from Peking University and going to the University of Pennsylvania, I was very interested in business. I happened upon two life-changing events: one was Elon Musk's speech, which intrigued me. He described electric cars as completely different from gasoline-powered vehicles, representing a technological breakthrough. However, I didn't start a car business at the time because I lacked a manufacturing background. The other was Bitcoin.

I was just a grassroots entrepreneur, starting my own business right out of college. Other successful companies I met at the same time as me included Insta 360 and Bilibili. Our success was predicated on the fact that these sectors didn't require heavy capital. Projects that required massive investments from the outset weren't suitable for recent graduates. At the time, several of my friends, like Huang Xiuyuan, were branded scammers by the media.

At that time, I didn’t fully understand these logics. I just stumbled into this industry by accident and have been doing it ever since.

Host: The CEOs of Insta 360 and Bilibili have not been labeled as liars by the media. Why are you labeled as a liar?

Justin Sun: Because we're ahead of the curve. First , there's a prerequisite for successful entrepreneurship right after graduation: Don't do anything too traditional. Traditional projects are quickly eliminated by giants entering the market and competition. Developing cars requires significant capital, often billions or even hundreds of millions at a time. Successful financing allows for rapid prototype development, while many others lack the funds and are labeled scammers.

The reason why Bilibili is successful is due to its online sense and community, especially the two-dimensional culture, which is the moat of the video community. Without these, even traditional giants cannot succeed.

Host: So, you think those who label you a liar do so because they don’t understand you?

Justin Sun: Yes, but there are two types of advancement:

One type is those that are ahead of the curve, like Bilibili, which has a relatively high barrier to entry and is difficult for giants to directly compete with. However, they can't completely avoid being ahead of the curve, otherwise they won't succeed. If they're too traditional, they'll be finished once a giant enters the market.

Another possibility is being too advanced, but this has its drawbacks: it's difficult for the media and investors to understand, and we need to be resolute and persevere, as we also need early-stage financing. Many Chinese PE and VC firms avoid investing in advanced projects, preferring mature, traditional industry models. Only VCs like Sequoia and IDG will invest in such cutting-edge projects at an early stage. Fortunately, we have the support of IDG, who recognize our foresight.

Host: You mentioned in your circle of friends that if you feel you're not successful enough, it might be because you're not crazy enough. If you were to rate yourself from 0 to 10, how crazy do you think you are?

Justin Sun: Actually, I was just imitating Steve Jobs. He once said, " Only those who are crazy enough to change the world can actually change the world." He meant that only those crazy enough to change the world can truly do so. I was simply paraphrasing Jobs's concept. In other words, if you're not crazy enough, you can't change the world.

There is truth behind this concept: when you do something very advanced, you need a certain amount of determination and persistence.

Furthermore, the Chinese translation of "crazy" as "疯" (crazy) isn't entirely accurate. The English word "crazy" actually implies courage, the determination to do the right thing regardless of others' opinions. The Chinese word "疯" sounds more like "madman," which is completely different.

Host: So based on your definition, how would you rate yourself?

Justin Sun: 9 points. Once I've made up my mind, I'll stick to it. Of course, we need to do it the right way, but we'll persevere in this direction. One point deducted for my lack of experience, which led to many mistakes in execution. Of course, we've paid the price for these mistakes, but they're also part of growth.

Host: What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding the outside world has about you?

Justin Sun: I think the first is internet symbolism. Most people don't really understand what I do, and they've essentially assigned me two labels : the "quick money-maker" mentioned earlier, and the "bug-fixing god." Regarding bug-fixing, they even describe every step of my life as a "bug-fixing" exercise to promote their theory. This makes me laugh and cry, because it's not true at all, but they keep saying it.

Host: There is a very funny joke, I don’t know if you have seen it: Some people say that you may not make money by helping old ladies cross the road, but Justin Sun can make money by riding an old lady across the road.

Justin Sun: Yes, it means I'm crazy enough to ride my bike on an old lady across the street, and it's not illegal, because there's no law prohibiting it. This is also a way to "bug fix." People can interpret it however they want, but in reality, it only reinforces my image as a "concept god." Many of the statements are untrue, but I'm too lazy to defend myself.

Host: For example, in several major crises between China and the United States, you were able to escape and stand up, and even gained great benefits. This was not because of a bug, right?

Justin Sun: No, definitely not because of bugs. I maintain a normal, normal mindset. For example, if something isn't allowed in the Chinese market, we won't do it for now and instead focus on overseas markets, maintaining a global perspective. I'm not trying to "bug-proof anyone," but the internet has dubbed me the "Bug-Fixing God." Of course, from a publicity perspective, this also helps me gain wider recognition.

Host: So one of your strengths is your ability to use all of these things and get something you think is valuable from them .

Justin Sun: Yes, so I can’t refute those who say I’m fixing bugs. They say that Justin Sun asked us to publicize his bug-fixing, which is also a form of bug-fixing.

Someone once said something particularly funny: At first some people said "Sun Ge", and later some people said "Brother Sun didn't cut me, I made money from all the things I bought", so someone explained "The reason why Sun Ge is called Sun Ge is because the cutting is very covert - on the surface it seems that no one has been cut, but in fact, it has been cut in some undetected places."

In other words, I have become a conceptual god who can "cut" you five years in advance without you noticing at all.

2. Contact with the Trump Organization

Host: What's the most expensive thing you've ever bought in your life? Trump coin?

Justin Sun: Yes, we probably spent more on Trumpcoin. We bought about $100 million.

Host: Indeed, this money was well spent. Can you say that it kept you safe?

Justin Sun: Actually , we've never discussed the concept of "maintaining safety," nor do we feel unsafe. The outside world is exaggerating. We've always been very candid in our communications with the US government, and we've never said we were trying to avoid anything. For example, when the SEC approached us, our lawyers were very serious in their discussions and never refused to communicate. If the US had refused to allow us to operate at that time, we wouldn't have done so. On the other hand, I think the president also showed goodwill, and we have a mutually supportive relationship.

Host: Can you tell us what role you played in Trump's issuance of the TRUMP coin?

Justin Sun: On the eve of the 2024 presidential election, the Trump team contacted me and said that if he was elected president, he would adopt a pro-cryptocurrency policy.

Host: What is their purpose in contacting you?

Justin Sun: They wanted me to provide policy advice and guidance. At that time, they had just entered the cryptocurrency industry and were not sure what to do.

Host: There are so many crypto companies and exchanges in the United States, why would they consult you?

Justin Sun: I probably do hold a key position in the crypto industry. They consulted with many people, and I was just one of them. The Trump Organization wanted me to provide guidance on cryptocurrency policy and support. They used to be primarily involved in real estate, but now they're looking to enter the new, blue-ocean digital currency sector.

I was incredibly excited. Trump had clearly expressed his support for cryptocurrency before his campaign and actively participated in Bitcoin conferences and related events, which was incredibly inspiring. I'm personally grateful for Trump's support of the cryptocurrency industry. Therefore, I fully support Trump-affiliated crypto companies. I believe this is legitimate industry support, without the negative implications that people imagine.

Host: Some of our audience may not understand this, so let me explain. There's a growing chorus in the market, claiming not just you, but everyone attending crypto conferences is lining up to give money to Trump, a direct, blatant bribe. As the largest holder of Trumpcoin, do you consider this a bribe?

Justin Sun: First, I think nothing is more important than openness. If this were bribery, no one would dare disclose it. Most importantly, it must withstand scrutiny. First, Trump's coin issuance was public, without any cover-up. Second, it requires disclosure, just as President Trump does every six months. Therefore, our investments in Trump-related companies, including my status as the largest holder of TRUMP coins, are all public. Perhaps this disclosure has attracted more media attention. However, I believe we were transparent and concealed nothing. Openness and transparency are crucial.

Secondly, regarding our stance on Trump's industrial policies, we are optimistic about the development of Trump's company itself. The American political system allows for relevant business activities, provided that declarations are made and conflicts of interest are avoided. Just because Trump is president doesn't mean all his golf courses should be closed. Furthermore, Trump's loosening of cryptocurrency policies is industry-wide and not a personal decision. Rather, it's the result of a collective decision by cryptocurrency lawmakers. The president won't do anything on his own.

3. Breaking out of the crisis

Host: I've read about your experience, and I find you truly remarkable. You've weathered several major crises. Many people either fail to escape these crises, or emerge battered and bruised, finding it difficult to pick themselves up and start something new. But you not only escaped, but also gained immense benefits from these crises, something many can't achieve. Could you share some of your experiences in the years since leaving mainland China in 2017, the crises you've faced, and how you managed to escape them?

Justin Sun: Yes, that’s a good thing. There’s a popular saying lately: “Brother Feng is on the run.” It means that no matter what difficulties he encounters, Brother Feng always thinks they’re good things.

Host: Do you think every crisis you encounter is a good thing?

Justin Sun: Yes, if we think about it from this perspective, as I just said, Chinese companies need to continuously complete this transformation after going overseas.

Host: Do you think your departure from mainland China in 2017 was a good thing? Let me briefly explain the background. At that time, China issued the September 4th ban, prohibiting the issuance of cryptocurrency and requiring everyone to return their funds. You actually completed the issuance of cryptocurrency the day before the ban was issued, and you had already left mainland China by then. Can you reconstruct what happened at that time?

Justin Sun: I'd like to discuss several perspectives. First, the external environment of the industry is crucial. For example, national industrial policies, not only in China but also in countries like the United States, can influence industry development. Unfriendly industrial policies can discourage many from entering the industry. This is an ongoing issue that needs to be addressed.

Back then, eight years ago, for many Chinese or ethnically Chinese companies, being barred from the Chinese market was a catastrophic blow, effectively shutting down the entire company. Looking back now, that wasn't the case. Internationalization was possible, and it could flourish. However, many people had a self-limiting view of Chinese companies, believing they couldn't thrive internationally without entering the Chinese market. They lacked confidence and felt they didn't have the genes for it.

Back then, the crypto industry was still in its infancy, with no real industry concept. We simply referred to the entire industry as "cryptocurrency." I personally saw it as part of the internet revolution, a bit like the mobile revolution, like the rise of WeChat and Alipay.

Second, and more importantly, technological trends are unaffected by individual national policies. For example, when cold-blooded animals evolved to warm-blooded ones, cold-blooded animals could not compete with warm-blooded ones in nature. Warm-blooded animals were better adapted to their environment and naturally more competitive. Warm-blooded animals will continue to evolve, as will mammals. Evolutionary principles are unrelated to policy; they are determined solely by what is most conducive to survival.

I've seen a similar pattern in the cryptocurrency space. If Chinese companies don't fill the gap, American and European companies will immediately. On the one hand, China's policy adjustments have led to the exit of many companies; on the other hand, you also face fierce competition from outside. The entire industry is a global, spontaneous competition. Italian and Swiss companies will join the fray. When Chinese companies exit, others will fill the gap. This is a natural process.

Host: I understand you mean that the crypto industry, like the internet, has no nationality. Could you explain to people who don't understand the crypto industry what you saw as the actual value of the crypto industry in increasing productivity?

Justin Sun: The value it enhances is enormous. The essence of the internet is information transmission, and it builds the infrastructure for information circulation. The emergence of blockchain and cryptocurrency has added the functions of value transmission and monetary transmission on top of the internet. I believe this revolution is likely to have a greater impact than the internet revolution. This is because the more valuable the content transmitted online, the greater the value of the network itself. In comparison, the simple transmission of information is far less influential than the transmission of money.

Host: Looking back, blockchain and cryptocurrency technology were still in their infancy, without the many applications we have today. At that point in time, were you truly clear on the value this technology could bring to ordinary people? For example, the value of the internet is straightforward: ordering takeout, chatting online—these are all obvious uses. But when blockchain technology was first emerging, did you already understand its potential, or were you still navigating it by trial and error?

Justin Sun: I wasn't just groping back then; I already clearly recognized the potential of blockchain and repeatedly expounded on the concept of "value networks." I believe the significance of value networks goes far beyond the internet. The internet is essentially about information transmission. For example, ordering takeout involves transmitting the message "I want to eat" to the merchant, who then completes the transaction through logistics. This process is still part of the information network, from the early days of the PC internet to the mobile internet.

But the value network enabled by blockchain is completely different. It enables direct money transfer, a revolutionary breakthrough. In the traditional financial system, money transfer suffers from two limitations: first, it cannot be efficiently circulated over the internet, and second, it is constrained by national borders, preventing true globalization. Blockchain, for the first time, enables seamless, cross-border money transfer through the internet. In my opinion, the significance of this transformation is even more profound than that of information transfer over the internet.

Of course, my thinking at the time was more theoretical, and I hadn't fully foreseen specific application scenarios. Just like when Steve Jobs invented the smartphone, he couldn't have accurately predicted the emergence of apps like food delivery apps or Uber. He simply created the phone and the App Store, opening the platform to developers' creativity, which ultimately gave rise to innovations like food delivery and ride-hailing. The same is true for blockchain. I proposed the value network framework, but as for specific applications, like industry trends, it will be up to the market and innovators to explore them. Entrepreneurs, venture capitalists (VCs), and private equity (PEs) will build on this foundation, replicating and creating various applications in different countries, driving the development of the entire ecosystem.

Host: Steve Jobs doesn't seem to be making money as quickly as you are. After founding Tron in 2017, you went to South Korea to launch the token. Although you later sold some of your holdings, the price of Tron soared during Bitcoin's bull run. You've claimed to be worth tens of billions of dollars, but Steve Jobs likely didn't reach that level so quickly. How did you accumulate this wealth?

Justin Sun: First, I want to clarify some misunderstandings. We have fully complied with Chinese national policies and carried out a comprehensive liquidation. There may be misunderstandings about how much money we've made. Just like Steve Jobs, Tron's market capitalization and my personal wealth are not equivalent to actual cash. We haven't converted our market capitalization into tens of billions of dollars in cash. The actual situation is not what the outside world imagines.

Host: When Tron reached its peak, you didn’t cash out?

Justin Sun: No. Including my publicly listed companies, we are all operating according to our normal development path. The blockchain industry operates differently from traditional internet companies. Traditional companies like Tencent and Alibaba "cash out" by developing super apps, going public, and then selling off their holdings. But the blockchain industry operates on a completely different logic—we are building a self-sufficient financial infrastructure. All activities, including stablecoins, settlements, and trading, are conducted within our own ecosystem. Therefore, the concept of "cash out" does not apply to our industry.

Host: Let's return to the main theme of your global travels. You left China first, traveling to Japan and South Korea, completing the liquidation of your token issuance and even doing live streaming. Later, you moved to San Francisco, then to Singapore and Switzerland, but ultimately left those places. Why did you choose to return to Hong Kong?

Justin Sun: I returned to Hong Kong to support its digital currency policy. When Hong Kong announced its intention to promote digital currency development, I immediately responded to the call and returned to Hong Kong. I hope my actions will bolster industry confidence and reassure everyone that Hong Kong's policy environment is reliable. Previously, Hong Kong's policies were unclear, and my return has, to some extent, boosted confidence in the city among practitioners.

Host: Some people say that your greatest contribution to the industry is that you serve as an " amplifier of industry fluctuations ." What do you think of this assessment?

Justin Sun: This comment is a bit like the " canary effect ." In coal mines, miners place canaries into the shafts before going down to test for toxic gases. If the canary is alive, it indicates a safe environment; if it's dead, it indicates danger. I play a bit of a canary role in this industry, and my actions are often seen as signals of industry trends. I think this is an objective phenomenon.

Host: Are you happy to accept the evaluation of "canary"?

Justin Sun: The evaluation itself doesn't matter. I believe it truly reflects objective circumstances. Many people use my movements to judge industry trends. For example, my attendance at the Trump dinner had a positive impact on the atmosphere in the US cryptocurrency industry. Previously, the US regulatory environment was relatively strict, and the SEC sued several companies, including Binance, causing unrest in the industry. As a result, many cryptocurrency companies closed their US headquarters and relocated to countries like Portugal, which has a more friendly time zone and regulatory environment. But after I "spent fine" in the US this time, everyone saw the signal and returned home with confidence.

Host: You've been accused by the SEC (U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission) of insider trading, fraud, and offering unregistered securities. They believe your tokens are securities, and you could face legal risks similar to Changpeng Zhao, or even jail time. What went through your mind when you saw these charges?

Justin Sun: First, talk of jail time is an exaggeration , as the SEC's charges were civil, not criminal. At the time, the SEC not only sued me but also Coinbase, effectively declaring war on the entire cryptocurrency industry. I viewed this as SEC Chairman Garry Gensler's final climax before leaving office. However, many people at the time foresaw the long-term consequences and mistakenly interpreted this as a sign of a full-scale, hardline US stance on the cryptocurrency industry.

Host: Is this how you consoled yourself at the time? You thought it was just a last-ditch effort by the old man, was this how you consoled yourself?

Justin Sun: This is not consolation, this is the fact.

Host: But the situation looked dire, and you didn't know what was going to happen. Were you really not afraid?

Justin Sun: I think the SEC's threat is exaggerated. I'm not afraid personally and will just continue working and living my life. Traditional industries like HSBC, Citigroup, Microsoft, and Google have all experienced numerous antitrust investigations and government scrutiny. If a company doesn't accept such investigations as normal, it won't be able to grow into a major company. The SEC's accusations against us are unfounded because they are based on retroactive actions without clear policy guidance. When the SEC sued us and Coinbase, they had no clear legal basis at all. They accused us of violating laws, but when we asked, "Which law?" they couldn't provide a specific legal provision.

Host: The SEC believes that your token is a security and violates the registration and oversight requirements of securities laws. What are your thoughts?

Justin Sun: The SEC's allegations are unfounded. The US legal system, unlike many other countries, is not ruled by the executive branch. Securities laws are enacted by Congress and interpreted by courts through precedent. The SEC is merely an enforcement agency and has no authority to interpret them. They claim that cryptocurrencies are securities, but no court or law explicitly supports this view.

Moderator: Securities law defines a security as "an investment of capital in a common enterprise, the returns of which are dependent on the efforts of others." Doesn't Tron's token meet this definition?

Justin Sun: Absolutely not. This is the Howey Test of securities law, which defines "investment of funds in a common enterprise where the returns are entirely dependent on the efforts of others." At the time, there was no law explicitly classifying cryptocurrencies as securities. Now, under the Trump administration, the SEC's related charges have largely been dismissed, proving that these cases were a pure abuse of judicial interpretation. While the SEC's actions may be motivated by departmental or personal interests, in the United States, the courts and Congress are the final arbiters; the SEC cannot make the final decision.

Host: You're very good at grasping key points and contradictions. You know that the characterization of cryptocurrency needs to be resolved by the courts and legislation, so you secured a president who can decide the courts and legislation.

Justin Sun: Neither. The president cannot directly interfere with the courts; his power is limited to the executive branch. Court decisions are based on facts, and facts are facts. Cryptocurrencies are not securities, and no matter how much the SEC (U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission) emphasizes this point for departmental or personal gain, it will not gain the court's approval.

Host: What do you think is the difference between the definition of cryptocurrency and securities law?

Justin Sun: Securities laws were enacted in the 1930s, before World War II even broke out. How could they have foreseen the emergence of cryptocurrency technology, which emerged only after the Bitcoin white paper was released in 2009? Trying to use 80-year-old laws to directly regulate modern technology is like even Trump saying at the dinner that he's not a god and can't predict the future of cryptocurrency; looking ahead five years is a good bet. He thought we had great potential because everyone in the room at the time was in their 30s, still young, and the future of this industry depended on us.

I personally believe that the SEC's imposition of securities laws on cryptocurrencies was a display of arrogance and ignorance. Garry Gansler is an MIT professor with considerable industry knowledge, but his imposition of securities laws on cryptocurrencies was a display of technological ignorance and sheer arrogance.

Host: The SEC requires regulatory measures such as account disclosure and prevention of money laundering. Do you think these requirements are unreasonable?

Justin Sun: Regulation itself is reasonable, but it requires extensive consultation and professional expertise. The problem with the SEC is that they believe they know more than industry practitioners. They unilaterally apply 1930s laws to modern technology, like applying horse-drawn carriage regulations to automobiles—completely inappropriate. Industry practitioners have never opposed regulation, such as Know Your Customer (KYC) and anti-money laundering measures; these are common ground. However, regulation must be based on professional expertise and extensive consultation, and the SEC often acts unilaterally, lacking persuasiveness.

Host: Some say this is the second major crisis you've faced since 1994. You say you're not panicking, but you've taken numerous actions to avoid the consequences of imprisonment that plagued your peers, such as serving as Ambassador and Permanent Representative of the small Caribbean nation of Grenada to the WTO. What's the significance of this role?

Justin Sun: Serving as Grenada's Ambassador to the WTO and UN Representative is a meaningful endeavor. Major powers like the United States don't easily offer such opportunities, but Grenada is willing to give it a try. This is not only beneficial for Grenada, but also allows me to officially promote the value of blockchain technology on the international stage. Through the WTO and UN platforms, I can make the voice of blockchain heard globally, not just in Grenada.

Host: In addition to amplifying your voice, does this diplomatic identity also help you seek immunity from US judicial prosecution?

Justin Sun: Not entirely. The US judicial system is based on court decisions, and diplomatic status does not automatically provide immunity from prosecution. US legal procedures are clear, from local courts to circuit courts to the Supreme Court, and decisions are based on facts. Cryptocurrencies are not securities; that's a fact, and no amount of SEC support can change the court's ruling. As Ambassador to Grenada, I prioritize the challenges and opportunities, and my ability to speak for the industry through international platforms, rather than simply avoiding legal risks.

Host: You've been able to navigate the revolving door of regulatory crises, both in China and the US, with ease. What lessons can you share with others facing similar regulatory challenges?

Justin Sun: First, don't take regulation too seriously. Every company needs to communicate with regulators; it's essential for industry development. Many people are afraid of or resist communication. I think it's crucial to maintain a calm mindset and communicate openly. This is the first point.

Secondly, we must have our own determination and direction. When formulating industrial policies, regulators don't want to see companies and practitioners blindly following policy trends like headless flies. The government prefers teams that can independently develop and succeed independently of government funding. For example, DeepSeek, a recent hit, built an AI giant with its own capital without raising a single cent from the market. The government naturally recognizes such companies, believing they create value for the country.

Host: You seem to have overlooked one point: Your experience also includes "looking at the Earth from the moon," not being limited to the policies of a single country. If one country tightens regulations, you can move to another country or region and seek some kind of refuge in due course.

Justin Sun: There's no need to exaggerate. My approach has always been to adapt to industrial development, and industrial policies in different countries are dynamic. For example, the US may ban certain businesses today but allow them tomorrow. So, we should experiment first and expand wherever they are permitted. If they're not permitted for the time being, we should step back and wait for the right opportunity. I don't believe there's a rigid order to prioritize; the key is to maintain an open mind. To use a popular internet phrase, it's not about not doing anything, but rather "doing it later, doing it slowly, doing it smartly, doing it meticulously, and doing it meticulously." Whether it's about doing things first, doing them later, doing more, or doing less, we can flexibly adjust based on the actual situation.

4. The Value of Meme Coin

Host: Do you think MemeCoin has value? Is it reasonable for someone to make a lot of money just by making a meme?

Justin Sun: Simplifying meme coins to simply "making money with emojis" underestimates the significance of this industry. Not everyone can create a meme coin with a high market capitalization through a single emoji. Why do some meme coins rise while others plummet?

Host: Is it because some people are very famous, such as Trump’s son or wife? Their fame makes people believe that after buying Meme coins, more people will take over at a higher price.

Justin Sun: In my opinion, that's not entirely true. The success of meme coins isn't solely due to celebrity influence; it's the result of an internet phenomenon. With the rise of value networks (blockchains), viral internet content can be converted into monetary value, something that hasn't been seen before. For example, PEPE coin, originating from the American frog emoji, wasn't just a meme; it also carried political implications. It spread widely on social platforms like Reddit, ultimately reaching a market capitalization of billions of dollars. This is an objective internet phenomenon, and we can only recognize and understand it. The key to the success of meme coins lies in their broad mass base and the support of this cultural phenomenon.

Host: Can you summarize the value of Meme Coin in one sentence to help people who don’t understand it understand?

Justin Sun: The value of MemeCoin lies in converting internet attention into money, similar to Einstein's mass-energy equation . Just as mass can be converted into enormous amounts of energy, internet attention is converted into economic value through MemeCoin. For example, the annihilation of one gram of matter can release the energy of an atomic bomb. MemeCoin also embodies the "annihilation" of attention into money.

Host: It sounds like it is more of a role and value for the celebrities themselves. So what is its value for people who buy Meme coins?

Justin Sun: For those who buy meme coins, the value lies in participating in the process of converting attention into economic benefits, potentially reaping huge returns at different stages. For example, Trump's meme coin (Trump Coin) is successful not only because of Trump's fame, but also because he has transformed himself from a presidential identity into a unique internet IP and cultural meme . In contrast, if Biden Coin were to be issued now, almost no one would buy it because Biden has not established similar internet cultural value.

Host: Suppose Biden is re-elected and issues currency, would you buy it?

Justin Sun: I wouldn't buy it. Biden lacks the internet meme value and cultural influence of Trump. Trump's IP is unique globally, while Biden hasn't made the leap from celebrity to internet cultural icon.

Host: Do you think Biden’s currency will be a losing business and will not rise in value?

Justin Sun: I wouldn't be so absolute, but Biden's coin issuance lacks foundation because it lacks the backing of internet cultural values. Many people now believe that "anyone can issue a coin," but there's a huge gap between issuing a coin and gaining market recognition. Only meme coins that stand out in the internet attention economy will be the winners.