This article comes from: CounterParty TV

Compiled by Odaily Planet Daily ( @OdailyChina ); Translated by Ethan ( @ethanzhang_web 3)

Editor's Note: Three hours before the crypto market experienced its historic crash in the early morning of October 11, CZ (Changpeng Zhao) appeared on CounterParty TV, a podcast hosted by crypto community anchor Threadguy.

At that moment, the market was only a hair away from a bloodbath. BTC still held above $120,000, and sentiment was still basking in the afterglow of its new high . Just hours later, 1.6 million accounts were liquidated, with a record-breaking $19.3 billion in liquidations. Altcoins plummeted across the board, with charts depicting declines of 80% and 90%. (See: "October 11th: The Crypto Market Plunge, $20 Billion in Vast Value" for details .)

"1011," following "312" and "519," has become another timestamp that must be written into crypto history. Just hours before all this happened, CZ was livestreaming, discussing memes, the BNB ecosystem, Perp DEX, industry divisions, and the beliefs of builders .

The following is the original content of the interview, translated by Odaily Planet Daily. For ease of reading, some content has been deleted.

• Host: That's fantastic, I'm so grateful you're here. It seems like you've been on Twitter more than ever lately , like you're on full throttle.

CZ: I was actually more active earlier, especially during the years when I was running Binance full-time. It's true that there's a lot of information this week, so I've posted a lot. I'm constantly on the road now, so I don't have as much time to post normally, but I've been busy these past few days.

• Host: You've just been released from prison and returned to Twitter, firing on all cylinders. You previously cited that Forbes article about your net worth, and while you said it was overstated, you're still objectively one of the most influential people in your industry. So, at this stage, what are your goals? What drives you to do what you're doing?

CZ: I've never been particularly driven by money. Binance grew so quickly that I didn't experience the average person's wealth accumulation process, the gradual process of earning money and learning to enjoy it. The first few years were filled with firefighting, and then dealing with US regulators. Those were very stressful years.

I come from a humble background and have never been accustomed to a life of luxury, but that's fine with me. Functionality is enough for me. Clothes that fit, chairs that fit. I wear a $300 Garmin sports watch, which is more than enough. I don't buy luxury cars, watches, or yachts. I didn't follow the "earn 10 million for a car, 100 million for a house, 200 million for a boat" path to wealth. I went straight from zero to the cover of Forbes. But I didn't suddenly end up with billions of dollars in my wallet, nor did I cash out in large quantities. So my perception of wealth is different from what most people imagine.

Therefore, I don't feel the need to "prove myself" anymore, nor do I cling to labels like "multiple successful entrepreneurs." My work at Binance is enough. I haven't deceived investors or users. I've done my best to serve BNB holders, our team members, and platform users.

I took on my share of responsibility, including the legal ones, and I faced them head-on. My time in prison actually gave me a lot of perspective. You realize clearly— first, health is paramount; second, human connection is paramount. You might miss food and a bed, but those things come second.

Before I went to prison, I had already made it clear that I would not return to manage Binance; I would only be a shareholder. I asked myself: What should I do in the future? What would continue to excite me? The answer I came up with was: helping others.

I believe humans are biologically programmed to derive intense satisfaction from helping others, as long as we survive. I no longer need to worry about survival, so my question becomes: How can I maximize my ability to help others?

I no longer care about "reputation" because it's already been hit once by legal proceedings and is no longer absolutely pure to me. But I still care deeply about "credibility" —I haven't harmed any users, and that's the bottom line.

Power? I've already left the operational side of the Binance trading system. Money? I have more than I can spend, and I don't have any material pursuits. So what I care about now is— when I'm old and looking back, I wonder if I've given my all to helping others, if I've done something truly valuable.

Education is one answer—if we can build a globally open, scalable digital education platform, that would be a powerful lever. After being released from prison, I took a few months off and then returned to focus on the BNB Chain ecosystem and Binance Labs (we've now relaunched the brand to fully differentiate it from centralized exchanges) to help more entrepreneurs succeed.

Do you ask if I feel a sense of responsibility to "control the fate of the industry"? I don't have that kind of grand narrative. I don't believe any one person can be solely responsible for the entire industry. The crypto industry will have its ups and downs, its downturns, but each bottom is higher than the last. I'm not a leader; I'm just a participant who still contributes.

• Host: I'm not putting the entire industry's future on your shoulders, but I'm certainly curious. Before we get into the specifics of memes, perps, and the tech ecosystem, I'd like to ask a more macro question. Crypto Twitter right now—especially those deeply involved in on-chain trading culture—is in a bit of a strange state. On the one hand, Bitcoin just hit a new high, and even with today's pullback of a few percentage points, it should still be a bull market. But when you look at your timeline, sentiment is as chaotic as a bear market. But from a macro perspective, the industry has actually achieved a historic breakthrough. The Trump administration has openly embraced crypto, BTC, SOL, and ETH all have ETFs, and most traditional financial institutions around the world are using stablecoins. Crypto has effectively penetrated the mainstream world. Logically, this should be a "triumph moment." But in the on-chain world, especially the retail-dominated sector, there was a meme craze, but now there's no such centralized, frenzied consensus. People are asking, "What to believe in next? Where is the North Star for on-chain?" What are your thoughts on this? What is your optimistic outlook for the on-chain future?

CZ: I understand the “chaos” you mentioned, but I wouldn’t consider it a bad thing. On the contrary, it usually means the industry is getting bigger.

In 2013 and 2014, we didn't even call this industry the "crypto industry." Back then, there was only Bitcoin, so we called it the "Bitcoin industry." In 2017, Ethereum emerged, and the ERC-20 protocol brought about a wave of ICOs, a surge in projects, and the industry's first explosion. In 2021, DeFi and NFTs emerged, and after the peak, things returned to normal, but they didn't disappear.

The existence of ETFs, Memes, stablecoins, RWAs, etc. that you mentioned in this round indicates that the dimensions of the industry are expanding , the ecological stratification is becoming more and more detailed, and different groups of people are beginning to have different belief entrances - this shows that the scale is large enough .

Indeed, this has led to a more pronounced divide—the liberal camp of the old guard, the institutionalists of traditional finance, the meme-mongers of new chains, the value builders, and the Bitcoin Maxis. Each group has its own language. This is inevitable. If Web 3 is to be a truly decentralized ecosystem, it should have conflict, disagreement, competition, but also collaboration.

I'm personally accustomed to chaos. I'm not one for order. I prefer an open environment, the unknown, and a place with diverse voices. So, I believe the industry's current sense of fragmentation is actually a sign of maturity—it indicates that we're no longer operating on a single narrative, but have entered an ecosystem-level structure.

You ask what the North Star is? I think it's no longer a specific asset or a single narrative, but rather— more people continue to enter, a larger ecosystem accommodates multiple narratives, and is still being built. This itself is the direction.

• Host: It's quite counterintuitive right now. Bitcoin just hit a new high, and then it only dropped 1%, and the entire Twitter timeline just collapsed, with everyone shouting, "It's over." This might be the norm for the crypto world in 2025. Speaking of Bitcoin, about five months ago, you appeared on Ferox's podcast (hat tip to him, it was a great show), and you gave a price prediction of $500,000 to $1 million. What are your thoughts now? Do you still hold that prediction?

CZ: I still think this is a reasonable range. But first, I want to emphasize that I'm very cautious about price predictions. No one really knows where the price will go . All the people I've met who truly understand the industry won't say for sure that the price will reach a specific point. Predictions are just opinions, not definitive conclusions.

Historically, Bitcoin has a four-year cycle, with most peaks occurring between October and December after the halving. Given the current market conditions, Bitcoin is already very close to its all-time high. For veterans like us, who have experienced a 50% drop one day and a 50% surge the next, this 1% to 2% fluctuation seems trivial. We could even call it "stablecoin-style fluctuation."

Therefore, I remain strongly optimistic about both Bitcoin and the entire crypto market.

• Host: I've noticed a change. Back in 2024, you were actually quite reserved about Memecoin, stating on multiple occasions that you weren't a supporter, which sparked quite a bit of discussion at the time. But recently, you've become noticeably more positive about meme-related content, even expressing a certain excitement. What changed? Why does your attitude toward Memecoin seem different now?

CZ: I want to clarify first that I'm not "against Meme Coin." I've never been one, I'm just saying I'm not personally that passionate about it. It's true that I'm not the issuer of Meme Coin, just like I'm not an NFT investor.

I've never bought an NFT, and I've only bought a very small number of altcoins. While I support projects across the industry, I personally only hold Bitcoin and BNB—that's pretty much it. I haven't invested heavily in tokens on other chains, but I support the development of those ecosystems. Binance funds have also supported projects on many different chains, and I maintain close communication with developers on many chains.

The reason I don't buy art, NFTs, music, or collect anything like that isn't because I'm against them, but rather because I'm just not that type of person. I'm a tech-functional person. I prefer tools that I can use directly , not collectibles. I don't wear a luxury watch; I use a digital watch that tells time and tracks my activity. I play basketball, I run, and that's just my lifestyle. So it's not that I reject that kind of thing, but rather that I'm not part of that culture.

However, if users in the ecosystem like it, and if it's proven effective and has a market on other chains, I'm certainly willing to support it. I receive messages from over a dozen project founders every day, some working on launchpads, some on stablecoins, and some on new meme platforms. I'll look at the team, and if I think they're reliable, I'll help.

So I've never been against Meme. It's just that Meme didn't form a structural ecosystem on BNB Chain before, so I wouldn't deliberately participate. But now that users and developers are here, we should welcome them, provide infrastructure, and support them in building on the chain .

Memecoin actually places strong demands on chain infrastructure. It requires extremely fast information feedback, a high degree of real-time performance, asynchronous execution, and fast on-chain uploads, which poses challenges to the underlying infrastructure. Seeing these needs, I pushed the team to upgrade the chain's performance so that this ecosystem can support this high-frequency culture.

But to this day, I've never bought a single meme for "investment purposes." I simply want to understand the culture and try buying a little bit as part of the experience, not in the pursuit of a tenfold or twentyfold return. I'm not that type of person.

• Host: Another interesting phenomenon in this BNB meme wave is the sudden appearance of a large number of "Chinese tickers," which has the entire Western community asking: What's going on? What are your thoughts on this phenomenon?

CZ: I think it was a complete coincidence. It all started quite randomly. In February of this year, I tried to buy a small meme on-chain using CrossWallet for the first time. I thought the interface was simple, and I knew my private keys. But then I got attacked by MEV, the transaction failed, and the community laughed at me for a long time.

I played with small amounts, maybe fifty or a hundred dollars, just to experience the process. But everything I did, everyone paid close attention. Eventually, they even started creating memes around my dog, my profile picture, and everything I posted. During that time, I had to be careful about what I posted, because as soon as I did something, the community would immediately use it as a meme.

There was a time when I didn’t even dare to tweet because it was too easy to be played with memes. Later I thought, forget it, let them do whatever the community wants anyway. As a result, a certain atmosphere was formed.

Especially recently, on Mid-Autumn Festival, I originally posted "Happy Mid-Autumn Festival," but later deleted and reposted it, changing it to "Happy Mid-Autumn Festival, send your meme pictures." Mid-Autumn Festival is a Chinese festival, so the community was flooded with Chinese memes, mooncakes, Chang'e, and the moon, and all kinds of Chinese tickers were generated.

Things like "Zhao Chang'e," where I changed my name to a feminine one and used Chinese pronunciation, were only accessible to Chinese users. However, this cultural exchange created a unique style that galvanized the entire community, attracting many Solana users to the BNB chain. Some Western players even started learning Chinese just to understand these memes. None of this was planned ; it just happened naturally.

• Host: Thank you for your explanation. I'll ask one last question about memes, and then we'll move on to perps and more specifically trading systems. My original question was: What does BNB need to do differently to surpass Solana in on-chain culture and trading narrative? But while reading a tweet, I came across a point by Frank DeGods, who suggested that BNB may have a structural advantage that Solana lacks— a complete vertical stack : memes launch on platforms like Fourmeme → if they perform well, they'll be listed on Aster → if they perform even better, they might be listed on Binance Alpha → and eventually, they might even have a chance to be listed on Binance spot. He said that no other public chain can provide a path from native on-chain trading behavior all the way to high-traffic entry points on centralized exchanges. Is this path intentional? Do you think this is a unique advantage of the BNB ecosystem?

CZ: This wasn't a deliberate design at all. For the past six and a half to seven years, I've been busy running centralized exchanges. I didn't plan the pace of BNB Chain in advance ; it just evolved naturally.

After my release from prison, I decided to stop focusing on Binance's operations and instead focus on its on-chain ecosystem and decentralized infrastructure . As the world's largest exchange, Binance naturally provides a significant traffic boost, but this doesn't mean it only serves the BNB ecosystem. Binance will continue to list tokens from various chains, including Solana's meme.

It's true, however, that people in the BNB ecosystem tend to feel closer to the exchange because they hold BNB and are more willing to interact with the Binance ecosystem. This isn't an exclusive advantage, but it does contribute to a sense of community cohesion.

If you look at counterexamples, like Solana's Phantom wallet, it only supports Solana, not BNB. Meanwhile, our TrustWallet and CrossWallet both support multiple chains. Solana users can access the BNB ecosystem, but Phantom users can't directly connect to BNB. This actually demonstrates that our ecosystem is more open.

So the “vertical stack” you mentioned is indeed a real advantage, but it is not a closed garden, nor is it a deliberately constructed political structure, but rather an organically formed positive feedback system.

• Host: Now that we've discussed memes, let's discuss another core narrative of this cycle: on-chain perpetual swaps, or perp DEXs. I'd like to start with Aster. Why do you think perp DEXs have suddenly become a central narrative in this cycle? And why has Hyperliquid surged to the forefront so quickly?

CZ: Actually, the perp DEX concept isn't entirely new. Earlier, there was dYdX, and other projects have done similar things. Hyperliquid's advantage lies in its on-chain transaction recording and vault model. They also have excellent marketing, generating a lot of buzz. For example, they had James Wynn place a billion-dollar order on-chain, which generated significant buzz and traffic.

However, I've always believed that traders instinctively desire privacy. On Wall Street, veteran traders avoid having their orders exposed to the market in real time, and even less so when their strategies are revealed. Once a strategy is revealed, it can be targeted and targeted. Therefore, in my twenty years of experience in the trading industry, completely transparent on-chain orders violate professional trading logic, and I find it difficult to fully subscribe to it.

In June of this year, I tweeted that if someone could create a perp DEX with "hidden order books" or "private matching," that would be a promising direction. That same day, I received thirty project pitches. The Aster team was the first to say they could implement this feature. Other teams also said they could create a fully private matching engine, and we invested in several of them.

So I think that at the current rate of development, whether it is this round or the next four-year cycle at the latest, the transaction volume of on-chain perps will approach or even catch up with centralized exchanges .

• Host: So how big is the market space for perp DEX? What conditions must be met to truly "overturn" centralized exchanges, or even surpass them?

CZ: There are two paths happening simultaneously. On the one hand, new users entering crypto inevitably start with centralized exchanges. They want to use email, passwords, and customer support rather than directly interacting with private keys, MEV, and various address strings, so CEXs remain the primary entry point. Currently, over 90% of the global population has not yet entered crypto. Once they do, their first stop is undoubtedly Binance or another CEX.

However, as users gradually understand on-chain logic, learn to custody assets and manage private keys, and begin seeking earlier-stage, higher-risk, and higher-leverage products, they will naturally migrate to DEXs. This is because DEXs can offer things that CEXs won't, whether it's new tokens, memes, or early, immature assets.

So I believe that in the long term, twenty, thirty, or even fifty years from now, everything will migrate to the blockchain . However, traditional finance won't disappear overnight. Centralized exchanges, with their banking channels and regulatory compliance structures, will continue to exist for a long time , and the two models will coexist for a long time. Ultimately, decentralization will become the main battlefield.

• Host: So the user path is: first CEX, then familiarize yourself with the market, and then enter the deep waters of on-chain trading. So what conditions are needed for Aster to truly surpass Hyperliquiquit?

CZ: Actually, Aster has sometimes surpassed Hyperliquid in certain periods of time. However, I don't think they're on the same page, but rather serve different use cases. For example, Hyperliquid has a fully public order book, suitable for users who prefer to trade publicly. Aster, on the other hand, is more inclined to introduce private order books and more open cross-chain native access methods, such as allowing direct participation of native Solana assets, and accepting assets from more chains.

Many people mistakenly believe it's "part of the BNB Chain," but it's actually very open. Both projects are very new, having only been online for a little over a year. Aster is even an iteration of ApolloX, so it has some history, but it's still very early days. The first place doesn't always stay first; the second place can sometimes run faster because it can directly evolve its features.

• Host: This is similar to OpenSea's path: being first to market doesn't guarantee victory. So why doesn't Hyperliquid simply add a "dark pool order" feature? If they did, wouldn't that eliminate Aster's differentiated advantages?

CZ: They can certainly add it. I even recommend it. But competition among exchanges is never about a single feature. One feature can be copied from another. What really separates exchanges is their long-term product philosophy, user protection mechanisms, how they respond to issues, which Layer 1 they ultimately migrate to, and whether the public chain ecosystem will build a complete toolchain around them. These are the decisive factors, not just one or two features.

• Host: So if we want to evaluate which perp DEX is stronger, what are the most important indicators to look at? Recently, DefiLlama stopped tracking Aster because it couldn't distinguish between real volume and incentive volume. Some people also said that the current trading volume is unreliable.

CZ: I wouldn't judge based on a single statistic. Trading volume and user numbers combined might provide a framework, but it still doesn't fully capture the story. When there's an airdrop incentive, users will constantly place orders to grab the airdrop. This is considered "incentive-driven activity." Would you call it fake activity? They do pay fees and place orders, but their motivations are different.

In the era of centralized exchanges, we encountered the same problem: how to distinguish genuine trading from wash trading? If the platform charges a fee, then as long as both parties pay the fee, it is considered a "real transaction" from the exchange's perspective. However, if there is no fee, then it is undoubtedly wash trading, which makes things more complicated.

Therefore, I believe that incentive status should be labeled and allowed to be determined by the market . For example, "There is an airdrop incentive during this period" will be easily understood by users, without completely removing the data. As for how users choose, they will ultimately choose the platform with the deepest liquidity, the lowest fees, and the most stable execution . This is always the core.

• Host: So how do you think users can determine whether a platform’s liquidity is genuine? Is there a crude but effective way?

CZ: Actually, yes. When I was on Wall Street, we were very straightforward: we took a sum of money, say $1,000, and placed a $500 order on each platform to see how much they could fill, the slippage, and the fees. Then, we transferred the assets to the same wallet, and we could visually see the difference in the number of tokens we ultimately received. Even if users don't do this completely systematically, after a few tries, they'll develop a preference, and they'll subsequently place larger trades on the platform that offers the smoothest experience. This is the truest form of market voting.

• Host: If you were 23 years old and just entered the gaming market in 2025, which field would you choose? On-chain, AI, infrastructure, or entrepreneurship?

CZ: I'd offer a potentially controversial piece of advice: if you have a safe fallback, you should join a startup team sooner rather than clinging to a stable position for a long time. The real opportunities lie in startups, not established companies. But the prerequisite is to plan for the worst-case scenario, so that if everything goes to zero, you can still survive.

So the key isn't whether you should go all in, but whether you have the foundation to withstand failure. If you have a Plan B, go for it. If you don't have a Plan B, build up your capabilities first. Opportunity won't wait.

• Host: My biggest dislike for the narrative in the crypto world is the narrative that "you only have a few short years to go all-in, otherwise you'll always be a bottom-feeder." GCR's famous tweet said that after graduating from college, you only have a very short window to go all-in, otherwise you'll never be able to make a comeback. This mentality is why many people sell their Solana positions in 17 seconds, desperate to achieve "one-shot success." What are your thoughts on this time pressure? How long do young people really have to "succeed"?

CZ: I'm a counterexample. I founded Binance when I was almost 40, and I'm 48 now. For nearly two decades, I worked in various capacities, writing code, building systems, and later in management. I had a good career, but entrepreneurship wasn't something you did in your twenties.

Many people assume that entrepreneurs are all young, but statistics show that the average age of the vast majority of successful entrepreneurs is over 40. I also believe that if you want to start a business, you should try it early. The earlier you try and fail, the better. But don't hit yourself on the first wall—you can fail, but you must have the ability to get back up.

I've seen many brilliant founders who are smart and have strong execution abilities, but who, because they were too impatient and wanted to "succeed" too quickly, ended up losing control of their mentality. So don't be overly nervous, and don't let "time anxiety" cloud your judgment.

• Host: Is there anything you'd like to say to the community in closing? For example, what are you currently working on, or what areas would you like everyone to focus on?

CZ: I don't have much to add. Suffice it to say, the crypto industry is never a smooth road; it's bound to be accompanied by shocks, volatility, and controversy. But truly strong teams, communities, and developers will continue to build amidst these turbulences .

I myself have experienced many extremely difficult times along the way, but I always believe that as long as we are doing the right thing, not defrauding, not harming users, not falling into black holes, but continuing to build, then whether it is Meme, utility tokens, or on-chain securities, every path has value.

I'm a builder, and as long as we keep building, this industry will definitely get better. This week may have its ups and downs, but in the longer term, these mood swings are just a small point in the curve , and we just need to keep moving forward.